Editor’s note: Last week, Journalist U.S. Army Major General (Ret.) Mark MacCarley was featured on USA Armenian Life TV. TV Host and colleague Appo Jabarian discussed with U.S. Major Gen. (Ret.) MacCarley the recent Journalistic Mission to Artsakh, Armenia. Below is the text of the conversation.
Appo Jabarian: Hello, my name is Appo Jabarian and I am the Founding/Managing Editor and the Executive Publisher of USA Armenian Life Magazine print edition and online edition at armenianlife.com and USA Armenian Life Facebook, USA Armenian Life E-Newsletter (Electronic Distribution — e-blast) and USA Armenian Life TV program on AMGA channel.
Last week an unprecedented experience, we had at USA Armenian Life Family when a team of journalists consisted of myself and editorial contributors to USA Armenian Life, U.S. Army Major General (Ret.) Mark MacCarley and U.S. Army Colonel (Ret.) and Wellesley University Foreign and Defense Policy professor Robert Cassidy and Hollywood cinematographer and photojournalist Aaron MacCarley.
So we had a team of journalists trekking to Armenia and hoping to get into the Republic of Artsakh (Nagorno Karabakh). We should note that in the aftermath of the 44-day war in the Fall of 2020 and with the arrival of Russian peacekeepers, foreign journalists were almost completely shut out of the republic. By good grace and good luck our team of journalists arrived in Stepanakert on Wednesday. I’d like to ask General MacCarley about his impressions of his time in the Republic of Artsakh?
General MacCarley: Thank you Appo!
It’s a great pleasure and honor, I should say, to participate with you in this TV presentation to your audience. I think I should really begin as they say at the beginning. My first involvement with Armenia and the complexities of the Nagorno Karabakh / Artsakh conflict with Azerbaijan took place 5 years ago. I had been afforded the opportunity to visit Artsakh during the course of the 4-day war in 2016.
In 2016, I was afforded the opportunity to visit Artsakh during the course of the 4-day war and in fact, on the second day of the war, with the assistance of the then Minister of Defense of Armenia, I was able to move from Yerevan to Stepanakert, moving close to the front line, and have an opportunity to view that armed conflict. And come forth with the opinions of the manner in which that conflict was waged.
I saw the heroic actions of Artsakh and the Armenian soldiers, what we call “The Lions of Artsakh.” And their courage and dauntless bravery were inspirational.
I did see some challenges from the standpoint of how modern war is conducted and those challenges included the early use of drones and electronic warfare by the Azeri forces. I also noted that the Artsakh Army was having a hard time logistically sustaining itself.
Of course, the drones used in 2016 are not in any way comparable to the lethality of the drones that caused such devastation to Armenian and Artsakh soldiers in the 44-day war. I made a comment to the senior members of both the Artsakh Army and the Armenian Army that this was an emerging technology and that it would be a good idea if the leadership would focus on developing its own offensive and defensive drone warfare capabilities.
Now jump ahead to 2020 and we see the resumption of hostilities between Azerbaijan and Artsakh. Some would say that the 2020 war was merely the resumption of the conflict of 2016.
Now, I had very much wanted to move forward into Artsakh in 2020. Due to the intensity of the conflict and the sheer speed at which the Azeri forces had gained major footholds in Artsakh, and, as well then prohibitions put down by Armenia against foreign journalists getting into the country in 2020, that did not come about.
But my interest in moving forward to try to understand this war and contribute toward enhancing the military preparedness of Artsakh and Armenia, had not abated. So it was fortuitous that you and I got together just maybe 3-4 months ago and began to discuss the formation of a journalistic mission to Artsakh, where, we, as journalists might have an opportunity to take a close look at the battlefields and to interview senior leaders both in Artsakh and Armenia about a couple of very significant issues.
And when I think I should let you ask, “How in the heck were you able to move forward from Yerevan to Stepanakert?” But I’ll let you ask that question.
JABARIAN: Yes. The key-question in the minds of many, many members of the American Armenian community and the wider American Society is that “How was our team able to break through the barrier when in fact CNN, The Guardian and many, many other world media representatives could not enter the Artsakh Republic in the aftermath of the 44-day war?”
General MacCarley: My view is that when we arrived in Armenia and we began our conversations with senior officials both in the Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Foreign Affairs, we were quite explicit . We had a mission. We wanted to assess what took place a couple months earlier and we also wanted to share our opinions as to what could be done now and hereinafter to support Armenia and Artsakh in maintaining their independence and national security.
And I think that the message resonated with these senior official. After confirming that we were not over there on vacation, so to speak, they realized that this was truly a team of individuals with real background in military sciences; international relations, in journalism and in making film documentaries.
Shortly after we arrived in Stepanakert we had an interview with the President of Artsakh, Arayik Harutyunyan, which had not been done for months because of the restrictions imposed upon foreign journalists. We achieved something that nobody else has been able to do which resulted in a conversation about the security and the maintenance of that security with the President of Artsakh.
JABARIAN: Can you share with our viewers a set of key National Security-related questions that we presented to the various Armenian and Artsakh senior political and military leaders?
MacCarley: Yes, Appo. I think we should go through those questions because they were essentially the same questions that your viewership has sent to you (U.S.A. Armenian Life) by email, cards, phone messages throughout the course of that 44-day war.
First and foremost, the Armenian Diaspora and of course here in America we’re part and parcel of that Diaspora, and the American Armenian Diaspora is concerned about the continued threats to Artsakh’s and Armenia’s national security. The diaspora is extraordinarily important to the integrity and economic success of Armenia and Artsakh and now we’re saying that the Diaspora is also and should be considered as an integral member of a coordinated effort to maintain the security of those two countries.
The first question that we put to President Harutyunyan, and to other senior officials of Armenia was, “The members of the American Diaspora are most concerned about the territorial security and continued independence of Armenia and Artsakh? Should they be? The President was quite clear: “Yes.”
JABARIAN: You can see from this photograph, President Arayik Harutyunyan accompanied by Presidential Chief Advisor and Ambassador with Special Assignments General Rudi Hyusnunts.
MacCarley: the President Mr. Harutyunyan is a devoted patriot for Artsakh. He’s an inspirational leader who has the support of his own people and the world in his efforts to maintain the security of Artsakh.
JABARIAN: General MacCarley, what is your impression of your visit to Artsakh Republic?
MacCarley: I am impressed with the Artsakh people, their courage, their resilience, their ability to bounce back. And their continued hope for a better future for themselves and their families in the Caucasus.
JABARIAN: Were you a guest of the Republic of Artsakh?
MacCarley: Yes. We gained access to the President and the leadership of Artsakh as journalists who were seeking to tell the truth and doing right by the people of Artsakh.
JABARIAN: Thank you General. Back to the questions to the Armenian and Artsakh leadership. “What steps should be taken or have been taken up until now to bolster the security of Armenia and Artsakh since the war?”
MacCarley: We have received a great variety of responses. Prime Minister Pashinyan of Armenia talked about how the Armed Forces of Armenia have been reinforced with new equipment. He is moving ahead to establish security cooperation agreements with a some of Armenia’s neighbors, as well as reinforcing Armenia’s relationship with Russia, which brokered the November 9th Ceasefire. Russia is currently providing border security along the access road from Armenia from Stepanakert. Then I asked,
“What steps in your opinion need to be taken now, moving forward to insure the national security of Artsakh and Armenia? What can be done?”
I continued, “If you’re looking at the Diaspora as one of the strongest elements in terms of its monetary contributions to the economy for both countries, as well as keeping the Armenian culture alive, what can the Diaspora do now?” During the course of the 44-day war, the Disaspora was only really asked to, ‘Send money.’”
Certainly money is hugely important … because money buys everything: food, fuel, ammunition, personal equipment used by soldiers, drones and everything that’s necessary to conduct a war but there are other things that could be done by the Diaspora in terms of supporting the homeland. OK to get kind of specific here… There were some extraordinary young men and women, even here, in Southern California and Glendale, who stood up and actually volunteered to help during the War and flew to Yerevan to provide some manner of support.
So, the question that we put to the leadership …
JABARIAN: You were referring to the humanitarian brigades …
MacCarley: Yes, the humanitarian brigades.
The question specifically was – we put this to President Harutyunyan, “Would you support a humanitarian support brigade of the American Armenian Diaspora and others who would be prepared to deploy to the Homeland in times of significant threat to Armenia and Artsakh?”
Sort of an organized unit of humanitarians. We’re not necessarily talking about an armed militia, no! The proposal is for a purely humanitarian relief organization, structured like military logistics unit, that when something would go wrong tonight or tomorrow night, this organized entity, this humanitarian support brigade would be able to deploy to Armenia or Artsakh within 96 hours.
Of course, it’s one thing to up with such a concept, it’s another thing to bring it to reality. But we’re beginning the conversation and working with the American Armenian National Security Institute, a “think tank” that focuses specifically on those actions and efforts that can be taken by Artsakh and Armenia, their citizens, and the members of the Diaspora to respond in times of existential crisis to these sovereign nations.
JABARIAN: When we went back to Armenia from Artsakh, you paid a number of moving visits to the Armenian Genocide Monument, to the Yerablur Armenian Military Museum, to the families of martyred Armenian soldiers and to St. Sarkis Church.
MacCarley: I think it’s almost obligatory to visit, in a solemn manner, the Armenian Genocide Monument. (As seen in the photo) I am kneeling, praying for those who have sacrificed and suffered, lost of their lives, their families, everything that they held dear, as a consequence of the Armenian genocide.
JABARIAN: The next photograph shows you, General MacCarley, at the Saint Sarkis Armenian Apostolic Church Cathedral in Yerevan.
MacCarley: As a soldier we revere those who have made the sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice in defense of liberty. So, I placed candles before the altar and said a brief prayer for those men and women soldiers in the 44-day War, the 4-Day War, the War for Independence and all the other conflicts that Armenians found themselves in trying to protect their national identity and the Homeland.
JABARIAN: The next photo:
MacCarley: As you can see in the photograph, three of us, I, Colonel Cassidy, and you are standing next to General Gagik Melkonyan, another Armenian hero. He was the Deputy Minister of Defense back in the 90’s. He is still very much involved in Armenian civic activities as a Member of Parliament. He contributed significantly to the success of our mission. We couldn’t have pulled it off without his generous support.
JABARIAN: And next to General Gagik Melkonyan is General Samvel Babayan, the Founding Chief of Artsakh Defense Army.
MacCarley: General Babayan was one of the heroes of the Shushi Liberation during the War of Independence. He’s a man of action, decisive. He’s a military leader through and through. We had some extraordinary conversations. He studied the most recent 44-Day War and came up with his own views of what happened and what might occur in the future if there were any attempt by Azerbaijan or any of its allies to invade the sovereign republics of Artsakh and Armenia.
JABARIAN: And next to General Babayan is Vladimir Arakelyan — the commander of the Dikran the Great Battalion. He served during the first Artsakh Liberation War. He is befriended, on his right in the photograph, by Arman Mughdusyan, a Veteran of the 44 Day War.
MacCarley: The next photo of course is of the Statue of Mother Armenia. Mother of victory. It should be one of the most important tourist sites for . anyone who has an opportunity to visit Yerevan. The statue complex that houses the Armenian Military Museum.
JABARIAN: Now let’s look at the next photograph.
MacCarley: This is what we call “a sand chart.” And it gives an idea of how the the (1988-1994) First War of Independence was fought. I used it to to analyze what took place in the 44-Day that ended on November 9, 2020.
These are the photographs of those who contributed so mightily to the defense of Armenia and Artsakh.
We have photographs, here, of the Armenian military leadership specially during The War of Independence.
JABARIAN: It looks like we have come to the official end of our program. General MacCarley, I have the utmost pleasure and honor to be a part of the delegation — the journalistic mission to Armenia and Artsakh. Thank you so much for watching.